Dancing in the Discomfort Zone with Anne Bonney

What Will They Say? Breaking the Rules We Inherited

• Anne Bonney • Season 18 • Episode 401

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0:00 | 30:08

What if some of the rules running your life aren’t actually yours?

**WATCH THIS EPISODE ON YouTube: https://youtu.be/ty1VIuHSMDY

Award-winning filmmaker, keynote speaker, and author Denise Soler Cox (https://denisesolercox.com/) returns to Dance in the Discomfort Zone with her new book, What Will They Say?, an exploration of the cultural taboos, inherited expectations, and unspoken rules that shape how we live, lead, belong and sometimes hold ourselves back.

**BUY THE BOOK NOW: https://denisesolercox.com/book

The book was born after touring with her documentary Being Ñ. After viewing the film, people repeatedly approached her and revealed secrets they’d never told anyone and dreams they were afraid to go after. Denise began noticing a pattern: underneath many of those stories was the same powerful fear...what will people say?

While Denise writes through the lens of her Latino perspective, this conversation is wildly universal. Because every culture, family, workplace, and community has rules that encourages hiding things from others to "save face".

The fun begins when we start asking whether we still want to follow them.

We get into:

  • The surprising “line” that inspired an entire book
  • A cultural phrase that can quietly follow you into your career and life
  • The deeply personal taboo Denise almost didn’t write about
  • What an AP Physics lesson unexpectedly reveals about emotional healing
  • Why breaking a generational cycle may be much simpler than we think

More from Denise:

Denise Soler Cox is a cultural excavator — award-winning filmmaker, keynote speaker, and author who goes inside the cultures that shape how we lead, belong, and who we become. Her debut book ¿Qué Dirán? / What Will They Say? (Simon & Schuster, August 2026) uncovers the ten inherited rules keeping us shrinking and shows us how to stop. She’s spoken on 400+ stages, including two TEDx talks, and her podcast The Self-ish Latina has listeners in 32 countries.


Anne Bonney is a keynote speaker and emcee who helps organizations lead through change by building resilience, emotional intelligence, and courageous communication.

SPEAKER_00

Hello, hello, hello, and welcome to Dancing in the Discomfort Zone podcast. Today's guest is Denise Zilerko. She is a cultural excavator, an award-winning filmmaker, a keynote speaker, and an author who gets inside the cultures that shape how we lead, how we belong, and who we become. Her debut book, What Will They Say, which is being published by Simon and Schuster, August 18th, 2026. Covers the 10 inherited rules that keep us shrinking and shows us how to stand. And this is one of those things that I've been thinking about so much, the rules that we live by. Like, this is not Denise's first big scary project. She was on Dancing in the Discomfort Zone Podcast, back in 2022, on episode 82. 182, and we're in like 400 something now, talking about her film being NA. And if you have not seen it, go see it. It is about being the um child of immigrant parents born in the US. Fascinating journey. She tells her story and others, and um now she's at it again with What Will They Say. Denise, thank you so much for joining us.

SPEAKER_01

Thank you so much, Anne. I so appreciate your support with my original project, the film, and now my book, It Means the World to Me.

SPEAKER_00

Well, I mean, the beating in there was such a fascinating and heartwarming um project, a film for me to watch. Um, and so I can only imagine that what will they say will be as wonderful and heartwarming. Tell me a little bit about the origin of this book.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, so it was actually inspired by going on tour with the film being Enya. So the film being Enya is about being a part of the Latino diaspora in the United States, and it grappled with the question, who am I and where do I belong? And so all yeah, I even though I made it for first-gen Latinos, it was such a specific story that millions of people could identify with it because we're all human, we all have heartbeats, and we all struggle with belonging. And on on and any given night where we would screen the film, a line would form, and that's you know, afterwards, and that's not atypical for a speaker or a filmmaker. However, the quality of the conversations was a bit odd at first, and so I actually called that line, I started calling it the line of secrets and dreams, because people would want to, you know, tell me what they loved about the film or or what have you, they'd want to take a selfie, and some of them would share a secret with me, and it would go something like this: like, you know what while you know I was watching the film, I just like this thing just kept bubbling up, and I just really feel like I need to tell you this, and I've never told anyone before, and then boom, they would share this massive secret, and um and then sometimes those same people would say, I would love to make, you know, do my own version of making a film because I'm just a regular person that had a big dream and got something really big done, and so that inspired a lot of people to write a book or start a business or whatever, move around the world, you know, do something that's associated with a desired dream that seems out of reach. But then they would say the thing that the secret was about as a barrier, and this kept happening over and over and over again, and I've done over 400 engagements over the last 10 years, and it began to be a pattern, and I started seeing how um how these secrets were like um like people were asking me to hold these secrets, and I'm a good holder of secrets, I don't feel burdened by them at all. I actually have a hard time remembering them all, frankly. But I was able to start seeing patterns in the secrets as well, and I made a decision like if this happens one more time, I'm gonna do something with this because this is crazy and I don't understand it. And that night I had a speaking engagement where we screened the film, and then there was a big party in New York City, like a party at this particular office building, and I was like, oh my gosh, no one came up to me. This is great. I don't have to do anything about this because I really didn't know what to do with it. Like, I'm just like, how do I create a project around secrets? Like, I have I don't have enough information here. Like, is it a movie? Is it a book? I have no idea. And um, and then I'm on the dance floor, we're sauceding, we're Merengang, and I'm like, you guys are crazy. I'm gonna go sit down and take a break. And when I sat down, two women approached me and started sharing. And not only that, they said, Would you ever consider using your platform to do something about this? And they shared specifically about things that were hurting our community, taboos that things we were not allowed to talk about. And they got it that those things were getting in the way. And so that night, that's when they made the decision. That was about four, five years ago, and it's taken me this long to um you know to get here, but um, but the book is about taboos and secrets within the Latino community. I take the top ten uh taboos that people shared secrets around, and um, and I share my own. And the reason why I chose to share my own is because I didn't want to break the confidence of anyone, anyone who shared their secrets with me. And also I the stories that I chose were the same stories that I heard from the road, so just my version. And the reason why that's important is because I wanted people to know, because a lot of people are like, oh my gosh, like, weren't you scared to share that story? Like, weren't you scared? Or what do you think, you know? It's like, what do you think people are gonna say? I'm like, uh hello, that's actually what I called the book. I'm terrified of what people are gonna say. Yes, and the reason why I shared that story is because I heard it a million times, and and most of the time I couldn't say me too. Most of the time I couldn't say, I know what that feels like, because I was also constrained by the taboo that you don't talk about those things, and so ps I someone had to go first, and so I decided that person would be me.

SPEAKER_00

Well, thank you, because I know that a lot of these rules really hold us back from a happy life, from thriving and doing the things that we want. And this is a long-standing cultural thing. This isn't just, oh, I'm a little embarrassed. This is a long-standing thing we've been taught.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, and if you're Latino, I mean the thing is a lot of people might be listening and being like, uh, they either might tune out because they're not Latino, or they might be like, oh, this isn't just Latinos. And so I would encourage you to say to re to realize that truth. This isn't just Latinos. There are taboos in all the cultures. This is the one I can speak about is about mine. And yes, this is a long-standing thing. It has to do with a lot, it has to do with a lot of things, a lot of history, right? But the main thing is that we are taught to to think about what other people think ad nauseum. And that um, and the good side, there's a good side to it. The good side is let me think about how you think, like, let's say you walk into my house for a party. I'm going to, I'm trained as a young Latina to consider how you might feel. I'll take your purse, I'll give you a drink, I'll introduce you to people because I'm trained to consider what you think and how you feel. That's actually the beautiful part of um of being uh mindful of what others think and feel, right? But the other side is when I want to take a risk or when I want to do something outside of the boundaries of the prescribed roles. Then no one makes the distinction, hey, okay, so for these things, you don't think about what people think, only think about what you think, you know, but no one makes that distinction. And so there's only fear, and and then unfortunately, there's a whole bunch of great ideas, you know, that the graveyard of of unrealized dreams is very real in this case.

SPEAKER_00

Mm-hmm. Well, and and this all comes from that need to belong. It's a fundamental human need that you probably started tripping over when you were making the film, which of course ex gets even more now.

SPEAKER_01

Yes, I mean absolutely. There is a very clear tie to belonging because as soon as someone leaves the group, it's like, what does the group think? What is what is the group gonna say if you do this? I'm I'm a Latina, I'm a mom, I'm a wife. I make a movie that is so popular that I was literally on planes 40 to 50 times a year for years. And one of the most popular questions people asked me was, How does my husband feel about this? And what does my mom think about this? And it's like I had to deal with it at every location. It's like the patriarchy was alive and well, like they there were audience members that knew it is not okay for you to be out here taking planes, leaving your husband behind, leaving your kids behind, and you know, and not fulfilling that role as it's prescribed. And so I was constantly dealing with that question, which is also it's one of the taboos is like have living a life based on what you want. Like, no, you're not allowed to do that. You have to live a life based on what you chose, which is being married and being a mom. And there are and and there's nothing that that doesn't get to be expanded in in my culture, and I see it in other cultures too. And I also want to like note, it's not like I I I don't want to anyone to think I'm hating on my own culture. I love being Latina, I love my culture, and this book is really I wrote it because I want to upgrade some of these rules. Some like our phones need upgrading, right? Right? We have to plug it in overnight so they get the upgrade. We need to the book is kind of like an invitation to plug this in and get the upgrade so that women experience more agency in our lives.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I love it. I love it. And and the it's the duality, right? Because you did say this comes from a wonderful place of wanting to make people feel welcome, wanting to make sure that they know they belong. And I know when I walk into a Latina household, I feel very welcome. I'm like, you are welcome here, and it's like wow, I feel more welcome here than my own parents do sometimes because they're like, you know, do your dishes, you're fine, you know. You're gonna drink it. This is the truth. But it doesn't matter. But it's interesting as we start to explore some of these darker sides of culture and of emotional intelligence and all of this stuff, there's always comes from that good space. So I'm glad that you brought that forward. And this is why we don't talk about it, and this is why we need to, because we can start to dissect, keep the good, and start to look at the stuff that could be damaging, and how can we rewrite those rules? So, what are some of the patterns and rules that well, what are what some of the rules that you have in the book?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, well, so there's one that's there's a saying in Spanish, um, and and translated it's tone it down to Natchez.

SPEAKER_00

I've never heard that before.

SPEAKER_01

I know, right? I feel like we probably have that one in common. And um, yeah, like that is and a lot of young, a lot of older women heard it as younger women, and it really stings. It's called bájale dos raitas, and so it's like, you know, please, like, just turn it down. And so that is a it's like how how like looking at that one uh saying, um, beliefs, a whole belief system is wrapped in that. And when that gets shared over and over and over again in a in a young woman's childhood, it becomes her belief too. And so when we look at how that expresses itself in the professional realm, people like you and I don't end up fitting in there because we it's like we can't escape our the the power of our energy, like it's it we cannot be contained, right? And even if people try to contain us, it's like the energy is too big, and so then, but then we suffer. I don't know what it was like for you, but for me, I was like, what's wrong with me? Like, why can't I just like be like everybody else that doesn't have to get all worked up about stuff, or that you know, why why why am I the most passionate person here? Like, what's wrong, right? Instead of thinking, no, my passion is like such a gift and it's like magnetic and it can ignite a room, you know. Um, didn't realize that until speaking, which is what we have in common, where we both can utilize that, like literal, innate, something we were born with, some magic that we just have, and we take it to the stage where it's appreciated, right? Um, but if you're if you know, but I didn't I didn't have any like some I didn't have anyone saying, you know what, you need to take that energy to a stage. That's you know, it was more like just calm down, please, don't don't be that way. And so that's one of them. And then, you know, that's that's one that has kind of like an expression in the professional world. And then there's another one that is, you know, tectonic, which is our I don't know if that's the right word, but the mother-daughter taboo. Like if you don't have a good relationship with your mom, you don't you know, you don't get to talk about it. And if you don't have a good relationship with your mom, you uh there's something wrong with you because mothers are exalted in the Latino community, they're kind of like the Virgin Mary, you know, and like you don't say anything bad about your mom, you don't share any difficulties you have with your mom. And so personally, I had a really challenging relationship with my mom that I had a really hard time with growing up, and I I I tried to get support, I tried to get help, but it was so taboo, nobody would support me. And and that's and it was really hard to make the decision to write about it, but I did because I heard about this on the road so many times, and so many times, right, and and also writing about it healed a little part of me that felt so much shame and embarrassment that I could never work it out. So I found in writing forgiveness for my mom and the her capacity to love me the way that I needed, right, or a lack thereof, and also forgiveness to and grace to myself that even without that love, I was able to appreciate the love I did receive, but then also have um you know grace for myself that that that's just how the story goes, and that I get love and support, that kind of motherly love and support from the world, and that it's it's not missing, you know. So that's I would say on two ends of the spectrum a professional example and then a deeply, deeply personal one.

SPEAKER_00

Right. Well, and this is the whole reason that I do this podcast is because say talking about it, learning about it, reading about it, writing about it, making a movie about it starts to uncover the belonging in all the challenge of this, right? In saying I'm not alone. So as you're hearing these people's secrets and you're saying that's my secret too, there's an incredible healing in that and an understanding in that. And and I it sounds like you're treating it. It's when people come out guns blazing like mom, mom didn't love me, you know, that it becomes a challenge. But the way you're looking at it is very much like I see her their side, I see my side, I see the cultural side, you know, because it's not happening in a vacuum. Um and and looking at it from that very emotionally intelligent place, um, and and again, accepting it as it is rather than beating it up for what it wasn't.

SPEAKER_01

Right. Yeah. So well said. And I I will admit when I started working on it, it was just upset and anger. And then as I went through the editing process and the revisions, as you know, writing a book, writing is rewriting, I got I was able to get to that place where I felt proud of the writing, where I still shared the truth. But then yes, I also got to like, where is this from? Like, okay, so it's cultural, but like, did my grandmother have anything to do with it? Not as a blaming, but as a what was her experience like? And it actually helped me the most to understand what my grandmother went through, and then just knowing as a mom, um, like how hard it is to be a mom, and just you know, like, given like when life is lifing, you have a lot of kids, you have challenges, um, you know, like it's just it it gave me a sense for probably what many others uh uh have experienced as well, and gave us a wee bit of an explanation as far as like um like this didn't start just with your mom, this goes up and up and up and up and um dissected them. Right, yeah, and that like um that also offered some healing too, you know?

SPEAKER_00

Sure, yeah. Well, and starts to point out okay, where is this problem? Like, as we start to think about solving some of these cultural issues as we go forward as a community, starting to say, okay, this is where this comes from, and starting to look a little deeper that it wasn't the individual necessarily, that it's this larger cultural thing. It's a it's a fascinating study as you start to think about how do we protect the future generations from this, yes. And it starts with talking about it.

SPEAKER_01

Yep. I mean, so simple, right? Like a because a lot of people are like, Yeah, we have to, you know, stop the cycles, we have to do this. And it's like, uh, how do we do that? Well, actually, just like this, like literally listening to this podcast. And then if someone's listening and they're like, Oh my gosh, I I I want to share this episode with so-and-so so we can talk about it, like I want to share it with my cousin or my mom or my sister so we can talk about it. That's literally how you do it. And um, you know, or like I want to talk to my therapist about what I just realized, listening to Ann and Diddy's talk about it, you know. That's how the cycles get broken. It does it's not some like magical moment that happens outside of us. It it's like in the little microseconds, you know?

SPEAKER_00

Yes, absolutely. And just out of curiosity, did you uh where did is your mother still alive?

SPEAKER_01

Yes, she is. Okay.

SPEAKER_00

Did you inv involve her in this process? Does she know what's coming?

SPEAKER_01

She does not. No. Okay. We don't have that kind of relationship. Okay. And um, and it's okay. Like it's actually it's something that I really, really grappled with. And some people ask me, um, have asked me, like, you know, would I would, you know, do I hope that she apologizes? Do I hope that she um whatever? And I'm and I just think I just say no. Like I just I I'm actually I'm okay with exactly what is. And um, and no, she's not involved. There, there's no um um like there's no advantage, you know, to involving her.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Um well and and interesting, it sounds like you've written the book in a way, in a respectful way, that's not finger pointy or finger waggy. Um that is just here's the observations, here's where it is, and here's you know how we work through it.

SPEAKER_01

Yes, yeah, and it's really touchy. It's really touchy. And you know, the thing is the reason why I chose that, because I chose 10, or actually I chose 11. There's 11 taboos. Sorry, that for a while there there was 10, and then there's there's 11 taboos. Um, the thing is though, about the mother-daughter wound, we can say, is that people think that it just lives in um in a compartment. Like a lot of women just kind of compartmentalize that idea, and they think it doesn't affect other parts of their life, but it does. And there's actually a concept at the very end of the book that my daughter shared with me from her AP physics class. It's called thermal equilibrium, and it's this idea that heat, it's a it's basically the relationship between heat and cold, and how cold doesn't move as a as a as a temperature, right? Cold doesn't move, but heat moves. If he gets an opportunity to to be near cold, think of like this where I am right now in the winter, like when it starts snowing and it's cold, and then I go into the warm house. Um, the cold doesn't come in, the heat will leave to try to warm up the outside. Like that's just how heat works, right? And so my daughter was explaining this to me um after school one day, and I'm like, wait, huh? Like the heat tries to warm up the outside? Like, what are you talking about? And then um, and then I just had this kind of epiphany, like this is actually how my entire this entire book comes together. This is how all of my work and belonging makes sense, and it's it's essentially if we think about it like a house, and we have different rooms in our house, and some rooms are super warm and it's easy to communicate and there's no there's no friction whatsoever. It feels warm and cozy and easy. And um, like like here in this house, the living room, or actually right here, we were doing a sing-along last night on this patio. I would call that very warm, even though it was cold in the weather, right? But it was warm, we were singing, we're having a good time with good friends. Um, but there's some rooms in houses where it's like, oh, I don't get along with my mother. I'm gonna close that room and put it under lock and key, and it's frozen solid, right? And so, um, or I don't, I you know, I have a bad relationship with my boss. Uh, I never talk about it, and that's another room in a house, cold storage, right? And so we have all these rooms in our house, and and what the book invites us to do is allow the warmth to come in. And so, yeah, and all you have to do is open the door. You don't have to, it doesn't have to be opened all the way, it can just be cracked open. Now you might be thinking, well, if she did that, then why why isn't she talking to her mom? Why isn't whatever? Well, for me, the warmth that was led into that room was forgiveness and peace and grace, right? And so it doesn't necessarily mean relationships get restored, but it did get restored in its own way. And I Um, and I'm okay with that. And so the entire book uh is like 11 rooms of my own personal house that I decided to open the door and just let nature and physics do its thing. And um, and it was terrifying and scary, but deeply healing and also holographic.

SPEAKER_00

Like uh there's no place that it didn't affect, you know, like in all of your relationships and all of your the way you show up.

SPEAKER_01

Correct.

SPEAKER_00

Well, and I and I think that's such an important distinction because you know, you you use the word healing, not healed, right? I mean, this is a process, it's letting the warmth in, um, and it's letting making those cold places not stop you from living the life you want to live. So that doesn't mean restoring a relationship necessarily. That may not be in the cards, and not letting that stop you from living the life you want to live, and having the joy and the satisfaction and the ease and peace and all that is uh is the important aspect and figuring out how that works is individual for everyone.

SPEAKER_01

Yep, yeah, and so we have to decide that. And also, too, I don't believe in heal, I don't I to me, I think exactly healing, I'll I'll do that until I die, you know, and um and because I'm willing to do that till I die. It's hard to look at any one place and say that something like a wound, a wound has completely healed, because I kind of feel like um the more I aspire, the bigger things I aspire to do, the more I realize that some areas still need still need some love and they still need some tending to. And that's okay. Like I am I'm okay with that. I actually think it's like a the beautiful beautiful cycle of growth, you know?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, that there is no destination. And I've found that the less I plan on the destination, the more I find the little moments in the journey that are so healing, like that feel like right, like these conversations, you know, that feel like okay, we're okay in this healing process versus wait till we get healed to enjoy life.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Right. Right? Right, exactly. Just an idea. Yeah. Like I've never done anything, I've never accomplished anything waiting for something to be done. Like, this isn't like dinner, you know, like when dinner's done, we'll all eat and then we'll clean up. Like, that is not how life is.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, no, it's true. So you've made a lot of references so far to women specifically, and I mean, just by virtue of the fact that you are one and you're the one writing the book. Is this specifically for women or is it multigender?

SPEAKER_01

I mean, it's multigender. So I I wrote it from my perspective about my community. And so, um, and like uh here is a lot of early readers are reaching out to me saying that they're reading it to their husbands and they're, you know, it's it this is just facts. Like women, we are socialized to be a little bit better at talking about our feelings. That's just facts, right? And so it's not that we're inherently better, we're just raised uh socially, um, understanding, you know, that that it's okay to talk about our feelings, and oftentimes men, for the most part, there's always exceptions, have a harder time with this. And so when you're married to, you know, a guy um or in a relationship with one, you understand that there's, you know, the his inner conflicts, the things that he struggles with, right? Those things come out in relationships and healthy ones, right? And so um, so what women are finding is certain chapters uh peeling and touching on some of the struggles that they're that they're um the men in their lives are in a relationship with. And so they're reading those chapters, and then I have exercises after some of the chapters as well, and they're doing them together. And so, and then one of my um one of my closest friends, he says, This wasn't just written for women. Why are you saying that? And I'm like, because I had to write it to somebody, right? But he actually feels strongly it's um it's for everybody. So it reminds me, do you remember when Yentl came out? Do you we're both like we're both Gen X, right?

SPEAKER_00

Yentel is like above if you need me to sing any of the songs, let me know. Come on.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I mean, like, that is a very specific story. And I don't know, did it go to the Academy Awards? I kind of feel like it did. Like everybody saw that movie. Everybody, like there wasn't a single person who wasn't talking about that movie when it came out. And so um, the more specific story, and this is I learned from film, you know, making a film, the more specific a story, the more universal um its appeal. And so that's why I really, really, really um got really specific and granular on the story. But yes, we we could all relate, and also we could all benefit, you know, from like giving ourselves some time to talk about these things.

SPEAKER_00

Well, and I feel like uh uh it would be really cool to see this book, What Will They Say, being written from a male perspective because I know that they've got all those cultural rules. I can think of a few, just yeah, one of them you just talked about. Don't talk about your feelings, you know. And there's so many pieces of this that could be so healing for them too.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, you're so so this is so funny that you say that because I um I just I just was at an event and a friend of mine was like, you know what you should do? You should try to focus on um, you know, different areas like what would what will they say about menopause? Like people, like what are the taboos and secrets about menopause? What are the taboos and secrets about like what you just said, being a guy? What are the taboos and secrets around whatever, whatever theme that we struggle with? And so, you know, it's kind of it's it's a way of um extending this out because there is no off, you know, there every every kind of domain of life has its own set of rules of do's and don'ts. And um, and the ones that are in my book are very much um applicable. Like you could just literally copy and paste, and the details might be a bit different or the stories might be a bit different, but the but the ones that I chose are very universal, you know?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah, we all have those rules. This is amazing. So what will they say coming out tomorrow? Simon and Schuster, tomorrow, August 18th, 2026. Denise, what are you most excited about with this book getting out?

SPEAKER_01

I am so excited about people sharing with me that they finally talked about something that they hadn't talked about in years, you know, because it was relegated to me at a screening or in a speaking engagement. And I know that that moment is really healing for someone just to share one thing they've never told anybody. And I'm, you know, like to share it with somebody meaningful, like a sister, like a sibling, like you know, like your mom or family, your best friend, your spouse, like those are the relationships that end up transforming because you shared something that you've never shared before. And like that release changes a life and it frees people up. And so I'm most looking forward to hearing those types of stories and how you know, like how it impacted someone's life and made real change, you know, how they were able to make real change um after having read it.

SPEAKER_00

Love it. So if somebody wants to get the book, where do they go?

SPEAKER_01

So they could go anywhere where they buy books. So they can go to my website, Denis Stiller Cox. They can find me on Instagram, LinkedIn. I have links everywhere, and pre-ordering the book is critical right now. I am full-blown going for being on the New York Times bestseller list. I am not a ginormous name, I'm a very small name. Uh, however, I have a very big idea and a big commitment to heal a lot of hearts. And so if you want to support me in that, one single book makes a difference. Andor bulk buys also make a difference. And so, whatever, if you feel inclined, any amount of uh pre-orders would help me enormously.

SPEAKER_00

Love it. I will put all of those links in the show notes so you can have a quick reference to buy what will they say by Denise Soler Cox. Denise, thank you so much for being here. It's always a pleasure to see you.

SPEAKER_01

Likewise, and thanks so much.